Curse

Beelzebuddy · Jul 14, 2006, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Before we begin, a quick note regarding the format of this suggestion. In this forum you can find any number of concept classes with extremely detailed descriptions, down to a full list of well-balanced skills, backstory, the lot. In my admittedly moderate experience with software development, the next to last thing any dev wants to see is a fully fleshed-out suggestion, especially if he has to code it himself. Having no personal freedom to do things the way he wants it done makes the suggestion little more than grunt work. He's not adding a class, he's filling out specs. (The last thing he wants to hear, incidentally, is no suggestions at all.)

That's not to say that a good suggestion should not be well thought out. It should - if anyone inquires as to your pet class's skills you should be able to talk their ear off and get as technical as they want. That information, though, shouldn't need to be present to "get" the concept class. If an idea is good enough others won't need a skill listing; they'll be coming up with their own on the fly and no matter how hard you try your own skills won't be able to compete anyway.

With that said, I sure do hope my money is where my mouth is.

What makes a good class, or more specifically, what does a new class have to bring to the field to avoid being (just another X)?

Individuality - The new class must be and appear unique. It must play differently (if only slightly) from everything else, and require different counters to be beaten. Ideally it must have unique lore as well - it shouldn't be "this other place's equivalent of a warrior."
PvP enchancements - I'm an RPer at heart, but let's face it: Guild Wars == PvP. After learning what <Class> brings to the table it should be impossible to think about PvP without noticing a <Class> shaped hole in it.
PvE enchancements - Secondary to PvP, if a class significantly adds to PvE it's always a bonus. A lack of emphasis in this category combined with a narutarded generation of adolescents is what has lead primarily to the absolute suckage of Assassins in PvE, with subsequent and well-deserved hate.
Setting - Any new class must mesh with the game it's set in without redundant overlap. A guy with a laser blaster does not fit into a fantasy RPG no matter how you spin it. Likewise, it must not resemble any other class to the point where their niches are interchangeable.

Onto the meat of this topic - The Dervish

Consider the warrior as a balance between three desirable traits: offensive power, defensive power, and battlefield agility. He is dangerous enough that you don't want him attacking you (but not always an "omfg I'm dead" situation), defensive enough that despite his offense his priority in the enemy's kill-list is reasonably low, and fast enough to give chase if needed (but not so fast as to make escape impossible). Now picture the assassin to one side of the warrior. Sins are the result of a simple tradeoff: sharply reduced defense in return for increased offensive capabilities and vastly improved movement options. Now suppose the Assassin is but one side of a triangle, centered on the Warrior. Sins' corner has reduced defense, but increased offense and agility. The other two corners hold empty slots for a fast, tough but weak character, and a dangerously durable yet slow character. This last one is the Dervish.

For those unfamiliar with the historical significance of the term, Dervish traditionally refers to Muslim monk-equivalents who, among other things, are often associated with the trance-like states that some Dervish orders use as part of their religious practice. This would of course make the Dervish a good class for Campaign Three, although I expect I'm well past the cut-off date for new classes. (Note to GW: give us a theme earlier than six months before release!) "Dervish" is also used to denote a person with limitless and frenzied energy.

A few youtube clips of Whirling Dervish dances, which should be the primary graphical inspiration for the Dervish class (as opposed to those Dervishes who beg on the streets or stab themselves with red hot needles):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z32hDXXkyM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1NsVD9qsUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIpHdbSq_04
Note the use of knockdown in the second link. Clearly, these are men to be feared.

What I envision Dervishes bringing to Guild Wars is the Trance ability. Similar in execution to stances (to the point that anything which removes stances can remove both), trances would be activated in a manner more similar to adrenaline skills - some number of consecutive melee hits without a block, evasion, miss or knockdown enables the trance to be insta-cast (in other words, the Dervish works himself into a frenzied trance).

Once active the trance runs until completion, which may not be a good thing. I would hope for trances that are double edged swords: conferring some significant bonus but locking player control in some fashion. Say you have a trance that adds +20 damage to every hit, with the downside that while the trance is active you cannot break from combat, change targets, or cast any spells with a casting time. Or a trance that deals damage to all adjacent foes in addition to your normal attacks, but you move 90% slower.

I'd also like to see a Dervish attribute focusing primarily on shouts (reminiscent of the Howling Dervishes, another well-known order) that boost himself and allies, particularly allies adjacent to the Dervish. Properly done, a well-built Dervish should be able to significantly increase the lifespan of a caster under his wing and tremendously toughen fellow warriors by his side. This would help make caster builds that are currently too risky to play (close-range fire ele) much more effective with the proper teamwork.

Attributes:
Trancery {P}
Weapon mastery (most likely some type of sword [perhaps the shamshir?])
Defensive and healing skills
Howling

The best trances of all kinds should be found in the first attribute, mostly offensive trances in weapon mastery, mostly defensive and healing trances in Defense, and Howling could really be anything, though I'd like to see some excellent hex and condition self-removal in keeping with the defensive bent (Empathy, when cast at the beginning of an uninterruptable offensive trance, might be extremely fatal otherwise).

How the Dervish will enhance PvP and PvE:
PvP
I'm by no means a PvP player - I have precisely one fame - but warriors pressuring the monk is one of the few constants I have rarely seen a game without. The addition of Dervishes would provide the potential for a monk safe haven at the cost of decreased motile damage. Alternately, a Warrior/Dervish or Dervish/X would be able to keep up with the other Warriors in terms of sheer damage while additionally boosting the grunts' durability (at the cost of reduced speed and a reasonable chance that your trance will work against you).

PvE
The PvE tanking scene is pathetic. Seven classes of squishies and only one tank? There's even two healing-types now! Dervishes would be a tremendous boon to PvE tanking, providing variety and allowing Warriors to better explore their damage options instead of being forced to tank mission after mission. Not to mention that the AI will be much less capable of making their trances work against them, and lack of speed skills is not much of a punishment when mobs wait patiently for you to approach and rarely run away.

actionjack · Jul 14, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Very nice skill in writing, and good choice of words and paragraph structure. Its something I could never do.

However, I have problem judging or critic this concept. Trance is interesting, and could be do-able and be balance, but I would still like to see some example of skills for easier visual of the mechanic behind it.

Also it is not unique enough. Having a trance is not enough to break it from steping on the role that is usually filled by Warrior or even Assassin. You would try to give it more uniquness in other attributes.. but again, with out any details, we are left to our freedom as to what that might be....

Don't be shy on the details. Its on the fourm, so your primary audience will be Us. It will only get to Dev attension if lots people /sign it, so give us more to feed us. (else suffer the fate of being call "another-warrior-clone"

)

Spoony · Jul 14, 2006, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Awwwwwwwwwwwkwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaard

ppp

ShadowStorm · Jul 14, 2006, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Hmmmmm... I'm somewhat familiar with dervishes as fighters, but don't they traditionally ride horses? For example, in the tale of Ali Baba and the 40 thieves, the thieves were all whirling dervishes. They would ride into town and outnumber the law enforcement before anything could be done, then they'd rob the town and leave. Their horsemanship was unmatched and thus they could dodge arrows and fight back without any trouble. The video clips you provided show dancers, not fighters. And there are no horses to be seen...

Also, dervishes tended not to wear cumbersome armor as it slowed them down. However, this doesn't necessarily throw your idea of a dervish tank out the window. If dervishes in Guild Wars were allowed to ride horses like they do traditionally, their superior mobility would help a great deal with their ability to stop attacks. One of their attributes, horsemanship maybe, could give an inherent ability to evade attacks which would make them useful tanks. Horsemanship would probably contain skills similar to the Warrior Tactics line as well.

I'm thinking the corner of the triangle the dervish would occupy would be the fast, durable, but weak damage output corner, not the durable, slow, fearsome damage output corner.

Just my thoughts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjack

Also it is not unique enough. Having a trance is not enough to break it from steping on the role that is usually filled by Warrior or even Assassin.

A horseman class of dervish would definitely be unique enough.

Beelzebuddy · Jul 14, 2006, 06:57 PM // 18:57

actionjack: I apologize if I did not elaborate enough on the mechanism.

Compared to the Warrior, Assassins are frontloaded - they deal a great deal of damage, then have to run away to regen and recharge while picking another target. Warriors, on the other hand, have to charge up their adrenal skills before unleashing hell in the form of an attack chain, then charge again. The Dervish would be backloaded even farther - a number of consecutive hits would be required without breaking from combat, but once active trances should deal consistently large damage for significant periods of time. Whereas Ws and As focus on short, high damage combos, Ds would work themselves into becoming death on legs. Close proximity to a tranced Dervish should be something any class would want to avoid.

What balances the Dervish is his relatively non-motile nature. Yeah, he can deal phenomenal damage, but that damage would be most useful when used in the defense of monks and casters: not only are his trances less likely to work against him then (fewer cooperating enemies to take advantage of it), but he also has shouts to significantly buff the casters. In this sense, the Dervish would be like static defense.

A note on the word "trance," I was unimpressed with it to begin with and it has since failed to grow on me. I'd like to consider an arabic equivalent, but I don't have the foggiest idea how to pronounce غَيْبُوبَة. Is there anyone here who knows?

Another note: I don't believe I mentioned this in the first post, but I'd expect dervishes to have ranger energy (30 base, +3 regen). They're not casters, but will have to fuel their shouts somehow.

Since you did ask for specific skills, I'll try to keep your ear on.
As it's nearly impossible to test how easy consecutive hits are to get with a team that wants to keep you from getting them, I'm using 3 hits as an easy trance that should nearly always be available, and 7 hits as a very difficult to acheive trance that requires teamwork (in the form of allies slowing/interrupting the enemy without killing him first) to activate.

Trance Mastery:
Sword of Seif - 5 hits
Trance. For 10...30 seconds your melee attacks deal +5...+20 damage, but you cannot break from combat.

Contemplation of Fateen - 3 hits
Trance. For 2...7 seconds your attacks that are "missed," "blocked," or "evaded" also charge trance skills.

Weapon Mastery:
Blades of Muhad - 4 hits
Trance. For 4...20 seconds, adjacent foes take 25 slashing damage each second, but you move 50%...21% slower.

Focused Slash - 5 energy, 5 sec recharge
If you are in a trance, your next melee attack deals +10...+30 damage.

Defense Mastery:
"I Don't Need Eyes to See!" - 10 energy, 30 sec recharge
Shout. For 5...15 seconds Blindness cannot increase your miss rate above 20%.

Blessing of Akbar - 4 hits
Trance. For 10...30 seconds you are unaffected by traps.

Howling:
"Nassir Protect You!" - 5 energy, 15 sec recharge
Shout. If an adjacent ally is casting a spell, you and all adjacent allies gain +40 armor for 5...15 seconds.

"Safiy Save You!" - 10 energy, 10 sec recharge
Shout. For 4...7 seconds, the next time an adjacent ally would be hit by an attack, the attack fails and the attacker takes 10...76 damage.

Shadow Storm: I have never heard of dervishes on horseback. Neither has wikipedia or google. In your defense, though, the art for the Magic: the Gathering Whirling Dervish card is indeed a rider. I don't think that's enough to integrate cavalry into the game, not to mention the difficulty balancing combat for level 40s.

Regarding armor, well, if in Guild Wars an off the shoulder evening dress can represent only 20 less armor than a full suit of platemail, I don't think it's a big concern.

Thank you for suggesting it, though, as your post contributes to my original point. Too often the thread starter will have a concrete idea of a class and exactly what it can and cannot do, and the discussion is limited to accepting the class exactly as it is with little to no changes made or rejecting the entire concept.

actionjack · Jul 14, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I am not sure about "break from combat", please explain more.

I can easily think of the dance such class would have....

Trance is a interesting idea, that could expanded upon to make them seperate more from being yet another melee fighter. But it need some intereseting mechanics (namly, ways to active it, ways to break it, and upkeeps)
One defenssive trance I want to see is

Painless -
While you are in trance, you receive 0 damage from all attacks... When the trance is over, that damage you receive earlier returns.

I will see if I can contribute bit more into it later.. when I get more creative....

Beelzebuddy · Jul 18, 2006, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Well, shit. There goes that.

tomcruisejr · Jul 19, 2006, 12:00 AM // 00:00

getting your concept implemented in a popular game is a very good achievement.

congrats..

Rikimaru · Jul 19, 2006, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Well, they used your name. Also, from the description it seems that class might be a little stance-crazy just like yours (not an insult).

actionjack · Jul 19, 2006, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Yes, I hightly question the dev use your idea, which was posted only week ago, as bases for their new class. Also you don't have a scythes

But atleast you got the good call on the names. Kudos.

ryanryanryan0310 · Jul 19, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

congrats, they used your idea...

Former Ruling · Jul 19, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryanryanryan0310

congrats, they used your idea...

Yup, a game they've been making for a year, ripped off his idea he posted a week ago.

>_>

Opeth11 · Jul 19, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Yup, a game they've been making for a year, ripped off his idea he posted a week ago.

>_>

They can predict the future.

Dj Tano · Jul 19, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

You must be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing kidding me!

This guy knew the new class a week be4 they released them, wheter he h4xx or hes a member of the team.

The name dervish.
The weapon is not a scythe but its basically the same.
The trances thing is the transforming into a god.
And the shouts are the concept of the other class. (shouts to make allies better)

actionjack · Jul 19, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dj Tano

You must be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing kidding me!

This guy knew the new class a week be4 they released them, wheter he h4xx or hes a member of the team.

The name dervish.
The weapon is not a scythe but its basically the same.
The trances thing is the transforming into a god.
And the shouts are the concept of the other class. (shouts to make allies better)

OMG, you are RIGHT!

Beelzebuddy is the greatest forum suggestioner EVER! Please, mighty Beelzebuddy, don't shun me on the harsh critic I give you before, it was all before I realize your mightness. No.. No... NOT THE STONE!

Nevin · Jul 19, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Anet had their professions underwork since their preview... Which was about a month ago. This was posted a week ago.

Poison Ivy · Jul 19, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

I gota admit...this whole profession sounds totally lame.

Vicks · Jul 19, 2006, 01:39 AM // 01:39

I love the concept of these trance type skills. There might already be a few skills similar to this, like Primal Rage, but I believe the effect of Primal Rage can be removed early, leaving the skills still disabled. Your concept of Trances seem to me that they cannot be removed but prevent you from doing anything else.

The concept of a dancer class is also very appealing to me, especially something as exotic as a Dervish.

Properly balanced I could see this being a nice addition to the game.

Lets Get to Healing · Jul 19, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Hmm will i get any dye drops, seein as you can see the future and all . . .

The Hand Of Death · Jul 19, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

During the PVP Preview Event, both Guild Wars and Guild Wars Factions® players will get a first look at Guild Wars Nightfall, and will be able to try out the two new professions being introduced in the game; the Dervish, a scythe-wielding holy warrior, and the Paragon, guardian angel of the Elonian people. In addition to testing out the new professions and arenas, players will also be able to compete for items that will be exchangeable for a variety of rewards throughout the weekend event.

Dervish is going to be a character in chapter 3 a holy warrior if I remember right and a paragorn or something like that. What do you know your idea may have not been late at all.